Credit Debt Cures - Intelligent question for everyone (details)?

Intelligent question for everyone (details)?

Agnostic here, dont want to convert anyone, So would we all agree, that science by itself is neither moral nor immorral, but it is the use of science by people that can lead to good or to bad. Example: medicine, research scientists using science come up with cures. A good use of science. Credit goes to people. Bad examples: late 1800s science teaches about evolution from species to species, - people try and use that science to justify eugenics. White anglo saxon prodestants, who believe black people evolved later than whites and were "genetic criminals" tried to pass laws that made forced sterilization legal. Supreme court even upheld a Virginia Law, SCOTUS has not reversed this law. In this case, its not christianity or science to blame, but the evil hearts of the bigoted people who ABUSED scientific learnings. So this question - agree or disagree and why - Is it people that abuse religion and science, for evil purposes, and not the fault of religion or science In the above "bad" example, from my understanding in the book I am reading, it wasn't just Prodestant Christians in America, but that the main players were, but not all. And of course, the overwhelming majority of people then and now (I HOPE) are not in favor of eugenics and forced sterilization of anyone. I hope this question makes sense

Public Comments

i agree with this premis. People take both religion and science and distort them to fit their arguements.
Uhh ... Yes, I guess, sometimes .....
I totally agree.
i would answer this if i was high. But unfortunately i'm sober.
Evil and/or stupid people use every tool at their disposal to do amd justify their evil deeds.
It's rationalisation. Start with your theory: for example, 'blacks are bad', and then work backwards from there: fumble through all of the philosophy, science, theology and opinions out there trying to find the ones that fit the original theory. Interestingly, Intelligent Design does the same thing. If eugenics is Darwin's fault, then 9/11 is God's fault. Clearly both of those sentences are nonsense.
I do believe some religions are used for bad purposes. I do believe science is not moral or immoral. We can definitely agree on that. I think I'll stop there.
Religious and bigoted people abuse science to fit their own agendas. Intelligent people are able to see past such abuses, and ostracize those that attempt to pass them off as legit.
Intelligent question for everyone (details)? is not a question. Again, you filled up space with scientific cocktail party conversation....very interesting. Try the science category. They are impressed with people who know about science but don't care about religion. As for abuse of religion or science, I don't think that is your real question.
For the most part yes. But I still feel the nature of certain religions lends itself to fanaticism and hate far more than others. Buddhism and Taoism, for example, have followers who, on the whole, are not violent or warlike. While the followers of Christianity and Islam seem just the opposite. It probably has far more to do with the "mob mentality" than the religion (both claim to espouse peace above all), but why isn't this mentality seen as much in other religions? I honestly don't think science belongs in the same category as theism though. Science is, or is supposed to be, considered unfinished theory. It is set by the testable conclusions and verified by many people working individually. Religion, on the other hand, claims to have the absolute truth about existence and then refuses to acknowledge any other "theory" that may disagree with them.
Agreed, in the same vein that a hammer is no more evil than a scalpel. Is the science is no more or less evil than a gun. Its not that they exist its how they are used.
Religions make it much easier to go bad. With science you have to work at twisting it and sooner or later you get caught. With religion, it's the will of god and (blind) faith in the leadership.
Very good question (!) but I think you've already made your decision, haven't you? Yes, religion and science are meant for the good of mankind, and because people believe in that most noble of causes, these institutions become very powerful. This power often draws dangerous people to them, who cause all sorts of havoc using the structures put in place.
when God creats it is out of love and authority when man plays God(eugenics, stem cell research, etc) it's never good
There are people who use and manipulate BOTH for their own evil doings.
People have always twisted religion and science to further or to force their views on to people. People like to obscure the truth to their benefit.
Yes, but that also came from Lombroso’s theory on criminology where he postulated that criminals were caused by inherited traits. He did much of his work in the same time frame you mentioned. It was not until later that he admitted that he could only account for about 1/3 of criminality through his trait theory. What you are speaking of goes beyond eugenics. Science (knowledge -- Gnosticism -- had to toss that at you :) ) has grown beyond those primitive ideas.
Yes, just like some scientists took Einstein's relativity theory and used it to make atom bombs, and others. So, yes, as complicated as you made it sound it is very simple actually.
I'll try to answer. Everyone likes to be liked. It's an ego thing. So when we say something to others we wish it to be heard. IT's easier to speak to someone who has same interests that you do. This is one of the reasons people use religion and science to "back up" what they "think" , they get off the point entirely sometimes by this. That is ok "if they are heard and agreed with". This is (power) for us and that is what we seek.
I'm of the ultra-liberal notion that no idea by itself and at its core is good or bad, whether it be science or religion or fairy tales. Rather, the interpretation of ideas into action really is what causes moral and immoral acts. For example, is "Kill all those who don't believe in the power of Jell-O" an evil or immoral idea? The act of murdering all of those I could not get to submit to Jell-O would be pretty evil, but what if I read it as satire and laughed? Is laughter inherently evil? I think not. So even blatantly wrong information, such as oh, "The Jews are contributing to the fall of Germany" should have a place in our society and should be debated. However, if the action tied to that is genocide on a level never seen before against an innocent populace then it is the genocide that is evil, not the idea.
With regards to science, it is often the attempt to divorce the divine from the natural that leads to either hotly debated theories or morally questionable laws. With regards to religion, it is often the malice of a few or the ignorace of the many that creates actions (both "constructive" and destructive) and brings dogma that are in opposition to the Word itself.
Evil and good are in the hearts of the people not in things. Religion and Science are things which can be influenced by the people who use them. Like anything they can be used for the purpose they were intended or they can be used fro evil. There are a lot of people who interpret things through their own eyes and then act out those thoughts saying that "Science/Religion" told me to. Often people want to blame religion for the actions of people as to justify or give reason and cause to what they do.
Can't wait to see the other answers to this one :) Anyway, I definitely agree that science and religion alone are not the problem in the world, it is those extremists that use it for things it was not intended for. People abuse religion and science and just about anything else you could think of, because it is in our human nature to be selfish and greedy. I believe that, with God or without(for me it is with), our goals in life should include overcoming that selfish nature to make the world a better place. It sounds cheesy, but it is so true.
Good point. Things are what people make them out to be. A person with an evil heart can take something great (like science or religion) and use it to cause harm or do bad. Look at the Crusades for example. Christianity may be a good, like affirming religion but some people use it in a bad way. Same deal with science. It's all about the individual and how they use what they have been taught. Science and/or religion (for the most part) is not to blame - it is the individuals who missuse it.
It depends. But what you're saying is that the Church of Satan--which is indeed a religion--is not evil in and of itself, just that its followers use it. (Because to "abuse" Satanism would be to have a kind heart and so forth.) With science, on the other hand, there are probably exceptions too. This is because science is a vast group of postulates, theorems, and relative laws. It is not perfect--it is just as good as it gets for now, until something new and "more true" is discovered. So, since science is human understanding of the natural world, it is possible that human understanding can create bad science. Check out the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, for example, that tries to prove that what the scientist sees depends on what he or she is looking for. For example, an electron will behave one way when one scientist is looking for it to behave that way, but under the same laboratory circumstances, that electron will behave in a whole other way for a different scientist because that scientist is looking to prove something else. I guess the answer to your question is that *most* things are not absolute, even those things that have been "proven." I mean, relativity is a theory. A damn good one...but no one yet has declared it a stone-cold law. Another thing I should say is that either a religion is true or it's not. If it's true, people can still misinterpret and pick and choose in order to back up their evil actions with misunderstood religious dogma. But it's true or not. Two religions cannot be the truth. This is all sort of half-connected thinking I'm giving you here, but your question has large implications that would require a day-long seminar to discuss in full. These are just some things to consider, in light of what you've said above. That is, what I say here is meant to provoke further thought, not to sum up your entire question with a complete answer.
I agree. Science is but a tool ... the "good" and "evil" is in application and use, not the tool itself ... that is, if you even believe in the concepts of good and evil (which, by their very nature, are subjective).
Well, of course I agree. Science is just a tool. One can use an ax for chopping wood (to heat an orphanage) or one can use an ax to kill someone. Likewise, medicine can be used to make genetically engineered weapons that can potentially kill millions, or it can cure awful diseases. I have seen some atheists blame religion for all the world's wars, but atheists like Pol Pot, Chairman Mao Zedong, and Joseph Stalin all brutally killed millions in the name of state imposed Communistic Atheism (so, when atheists are in charge, they do not rule any better than religious zealots). Selfish people can abuse anything in their quest for more power, but the thing that they abuse (religion, science, the military, etc.) is not to blame. +++++edit++++++ BTW, here is an article from CNN for the guy above me who thinks that Buddhism is always peaceful: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/08/17/sri.lanka.buddhist.ap/index.html
It is true that people abuse religion and science for their own purposes. But religion and science are created by people (don't see any other animal interested in either), so it may be pointless to distinguish between religion/science and the people who abuse it. No one has started a war in the name of science, but many cruel experiments have been conducted (both on animals and people) - both show the human race at its best and its worst.
Most people have heard the saying "knowledge is power" and indeed I think that is true. Science reveals mysteries, that information is considered knowledge...and every religion claims to have true knowledge of life and death and the purpose etc...Humans will manipulate and take control of any power they can get their hands on (lets face it we're greedy and pretty evil sometimes). So Its natural to assume some smart people decided that the scientific knowledge, and religious knowledge could be used to their advantages. The information in itself is used to better mankind, but the way in which mankind manipulates the infomation is what makes it evil, and it is not the fault of the source of the information, its the recievers of the information.
Science is by it's own stated nature not all knowing, and abuses of what it provides will be inevitable. Some of this will be malicious, other times it will be a simple accident of the information we are missing. Religion, on the other hand, often claims to be the word of a perfect "creator" and thus should be able to avoid any language that would even allow for abuse. Religions cannot blame abuse on the people (also created) without ultimately pointing at the creator.
Humans are at fault completely. Religion and science are tools...period. A knife can be used to heal or kill. Would we convict and punish a knife? Of course not. However, religion is a particulary powerful tool, in that it evokes powerful emotional responses. It has been said that only 3 things motivate mankind; power, sex/love, and fear. Religion touches upon all 3 of those in various ways. It gives power to the leaders and the lay persons in the form of control and superiority, it prays upon fear of the unknown and our mortality and it satisfies our inherant need for love and/or approval. As for science, well somtimes we get so wrapped up in whether or not we can do something...we never stop to think whether or not we should. Often science is used as a supplement to religion to futher its position, increase its power, instill fear and regain control. Critical thinking is required for discernment...however religion has dumbed us down to the point many of us swallow without question. Humans are easy to train.
There is something of truth in what you are saying, your statement is not far off from what I know as truth. I am a Christian, and have seen the "church" used for both bad and good by people; likewise science, medicine, war, money. However there is something missing here. It is okay to blame people, because in fact people are the perpetrators of evil, all having fallen short of the glory of God. But there is another who shares the blame, in my faith. There is evil...an evil that is active, supernatural, and in self serving rebellion against good. Christians call it Satan and his host of demons. And there is a war, in my faith, between good and evil that transcends humanity and involves other creations. And in my faith, these evil beings that are not human but are spirit do interact and influence people through appealing to greed, lust, power and so on. And this evil is also perpetrated through an even greater method...deception. Most of Islam, for instance, in my view, has a heart to serve God Most High with incredible devotion and unsurpassed dedication. But I believe that the god they call Allah is an imposter, a demi-god (demon) that has lied and played tricks to mislead them. Are they to blame? So that being an example, I as a Christian must also acknowledge that Christendom is not above the same such deception. Yes, religion can be infiltrated by evil persons and/or demons, and the ones who want to do good find themselves doing evil. It is up to us to recognize what is evil and to defeat it, but to accomplish this we must be equpped with weapons beyond the physical, and this takes faith and prayer.
God is good and truth but the reception of God's good and truth varies from individual to individual. God's sun rains on the just and unjust. God makes man eternal but man chooses spiritual life in good and truth or spiritual death in evil and falseness. Scientific disciplines are dead in themselves but can be used for good or evil in man.
I agree with you that science is just that science. Neither bad nor good. It is how we use it.
Science is cut and dry , in my opinion, so I wonder if people can abuse it very often. Either you have scientific proof or you do not. People, on the other hand abuse religion every day. Twisting scripture to fit their own agenda. Would any one want to be kept alive after being brain dead for 15 years? Not only was the bible written by men but it was translated and then re-translated many times by MEN! The priests that chose which books (letters) to be included in the bible did so over 400 years AFTER Jesus died. They too, had their own agenda. How dare any human tell me what to believe and what to pray or I won't go to heaven! It makes me so angry to hear these religious fanatics saying the most absurd bullshit. How can a telly tubby be gay? IDIOTS! Beware of anyone who wants to tell you what to believe and that only their way is correct. One more thing, stem cell research. Why is this even in question? Because some religious fanatics think its a person, valuable research is being at the very least hindered, and in some cases stopped altogether. Yet they think in-vitro fertilization is ok. Does that make sense?
For once, I agree with you on both science and religion. My reason is very simple: science and religion cannot be to blame since 1) they do not have the free will to act and do evil and 2) neither of them in their definition request that people involved do evil. I'm not sure the same could be said for organizations whose only reason for being is to secure profit for their shareholders - but nobody seems to care about this.
It is people who distort religion and science for their own benefit and not the fault of religion or science as a whole. I think this abuse happens out of greed. ..or maybe because the presented concept was not really understood, so it is interpreted how it is understood. There are plenty of examples of this throughout history. Can't give examples because my knowledge of history is evading me at the moment. Personally I think it is sad that we still have bigots and racists in this world today.
Hey, after reading that, I realized I was hungry. My conclusion: Steak and Shrimp is an excellent combination. (stfu)
I must admit, Jim, you do come up with some good questions. And I would agree with the basic premise of your question. Both science and religion are tied to the people that practice them, for good or for ill. Also, both sides of this issue are effected: evil intentions that create bad science/religion and science/ religion being corrupted by evil people (or even just misguided people). However, it should be mentioned that sometimes bad ideas in either science/religion can take a life of their own, as it were. Take the very prominent example of capitalism from Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism". Here we see that an idea (capitalism) that gets some of its roots in Protestantism (specifically Calvinistic). However, after capitalism gets going, it no longer needs those Calvinistic roots to keep going. It exists almost as its own entity. In a similar fashion, the same could be said for elements of religion or science. If a bad idea gets going in either arena, it may not need evil people to sustain it. Rather, it might cause evil itself due to people feeling helpless against it. So, while the root may have at one point been people, the evil might still exist to some degree without those people.
I somewhat agree.. I guess I don't see things very black and white.. I'm usually in the grey. While words are just that words it takes someone to write them. The person writing them most times will have personal bias. So the writing already has a lean to it. Now someone else comes along and accepts it or rejects it based on their own beliefs and philosophies. Depending on which way the reader leans depends on whether any more good or any more evil come out of what is written.